Curse

ruemere · Nov 07, 2009, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

This build is a Discord-AP caller. Below is what I use with a Physical based team; which is generally superior.

The MoP nuker must, in most areas of PvE, contain Rigor Mortis. Otherwise you lose 90% of your damage when you encounter a block-heavy mob.

To each his own. However, please take into consideration the following synergy used by this skill bar:
- EVAS, while casting EVAS use YMLAD to interrupt first skill
- the enemy is down on the ground for 2 seconds - at this monet an EVAS shadowsteps to the target
- immediate follow-up with AP, just before Assassin uses Iron Palm

First opponent rarely lives more than 6 seconds. The second opponent in the group will enjoy attention of two assassins.
During hard mode play, Charr groups often allow me to put up 3-4 EVAS in play, with a record of 5.

I agree however that for the Prophecies-only build Rigor Mortis would be necessary.

Finally, Barbs, Insidious Parasite and Mark of Pain are generic tools needed to resolve certain situations. Insidious Parasite is basically a 4-6 second self-heal and cover for AP. Barbs can be still cast within AP window to ensure opponent's demise (strong healers, boss mobs). MOP is used mostly to clear healer-heavy groups or to cause scatter of bunched up melee mobs.

Regards,
Ruemere

Xenomortis · Nov 08, 2009, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruemere

Finally, Barbs, Insidious Parasite and Mark of Pain are generic tools needed to resolve certain situations. Insidious Parasite is basically a 4-6 second self-heal and cover for AP. Barbs can be still cast within AP window to ensure opponent's demise (strong healers, boss mobs). MOP is used mostly to clear healer-heavy groups or to cause scatter of bunched up melee mobs.

There is a crucial difference between an AP-MoP caller and a generic AP-Spiker/Discord caller guy.
With the former, Mark of Pain is the pivotal skill, everything in the bar is geared towards this skill with the aim to achieve the maximum amount of AoE damage possible in a physical heavy team with the exception of Barbs. The core skills for this bar are MoP, AP and Rigor Mortis.
With the latter, the core skills are the PvE spike skills coupled with AP.

The two bars may look very similar (even identical), but they have different intents.

The bar you describe here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruemere

- Parasitic Bond (spammable hex and self-heal, great synergy with both strong spiking and Ebon Assassin's Iron Palm Skill)
- You Move Like a Dwarf (or any ranged skill inflicting condition, not necessarily spammable, Enfeebling Blood or Weaken Armor work fine, too)
- Assassin's Promise [Elite]
- Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support (or any non-spammable skill for damageing the enemy - spirits, minions, though EVAS works best)
- Finish Him (or Necrosis or any spammable damage skills or nonspammable finisher)
- Barbs
- Mark of Pain
- Signet of Lost Souls

I would not call the standard MoP bar. Sure, it is a MoP caller bar, but it's subpar to the accepted standard; if only because it has Parasitic Bond and SoLS as the two optionals - both of which are more or less useless.

HigherMinion · Nov 08, 2009, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Yeah, the aim of the build is NOT to have 89275928562 EV assassins in the mob, it is to have one target, all your physicals attacking it, while you've hexed it with Mark of Pain and/or barbs.

Sols is pointless because you have Soul Reaping generating 50e every 15 seconds and 15e from AP usually.

And Parasatic Bond... Well, how about leaving it up to your monks and add something of benefit to your Physicals. Your Precciiouss physicals.

Tenebrae · Nov 08, 2009, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Sols is pointless because you have Soul Reaping generating 50e every 15 seconds and 15e from AP usually.

And Parasatic Bond... Well, how about leaving it up to your monks and add something of benefit to your Physicals. Your Precciiouss physicals.

How is that so ? SR can only trigger 3 times in 15 sec and that build has 12 SR . Guess you meant 15e from those 50e come from AP , otherwise its impossible to have 50e every 15 sec with only SR ( att 12 ).

Parasitic Bond is not bad but in HM , Weaken armor is a must imo for big numbers with Phys team.

Chthon · Nov 08, 2009, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

How is that so ? SR can only trigger 3 times in 15 sec and that build has 12 SR .

Gee, he must have been rounding off. You know, like 80% up to 100%?

Thing is, rounding is acceptable in this case, because his point is still correct if you generalize: "Sols is pointless because you have Soul Reaping generating a lot of energy every 15 seconds and even more energy from AP usually." SoLS is pointless on an AP necro.

Quote:

Parasitic Bond is not bad

PBond is bad. It has dual functions as a self-heal and cover hex, and is worthwhile in neither role. Self-heals aren't necessary in PvE in the first place. And, even if you were going to run one, something with such unreliable timing wouldn't be a good choice. Since the monster AI (as best anyone can tell) makes no prioritizations about which hex to remove or whom to remove it from, AoE hexes make much better covers than PBond.

Quote:

Weaken armor is a must imo for big numbers with Phys team.

Weaken Armor is a nice skill, but not a "must." The big damage on a phys team should be coming from armor-ignoring buffs -- MoP, Barbs, Orders, GDW, SoH, EBSoH, attack skills. Since it only helps with base weapon damage, Weaken Armor isn't a big part of the overall damage equation.

Tenebrae · Nov 08, 2009, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Gee, he must have been rounding off. You know, like 80% up to 100%?

Or maybe he could have said that he gained 1.6/2 times * 50e every 15secons , but maths are stupid when they go so far from the Real GW huh ?. Get over it and stop dropping random BS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

PBond is bad.

As a self heal ? no . As a cover hex ? maybe but in case your AP is screwed it has low recharge wich makes it like i said "not bad" .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Weaken Armor is a nice skill, but not a "must." The big damage on a phys team should be coming from armor-ignoring buffs -- MoP, Barbs, Orders, GDW, SoH, EBSoH, attack skills. Since it only helps with base weapon damage, Weaken Armor isn't a big part of the overall damage equation.

What part of "imo" didnt you get ?.
Weaken armor works with ANY kind of team and also works with minions ( wich are Phys attackers ) so if 10 foes die in X seconds with a phys team, if you add weaken armor those X seconds are going to be lower for sure.
Its one of those skills like "fall back !" that boost SPEED and efficiency when clearing a zone / doing a mission , but ofc that is a Paragon skill but weaken armor ? negating all or a very high amount of armor of HM boost ? a must if you want speed and increase dmg numbers.

Xenomortis · Nov 08, 2009, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Weaken armor is a must imo for big numbers with Phys team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Weaken armor works with ANY kind of team and also works with minions ( wich are Phys attackers ) so if 10 foes die in X seconds with a phys team, if you add weaken armor those X seconds are going to be lower for sure.
Its one of those skills like "fall back !" that boost SPEED and efficiency when clearing a zone / doing a mission , but ofc that is a Paragon skill but weaken armor ? negating all or a very high amount of armor of HM boost ? a must if you want speed and increase dmg numbers.

Right... you've confused me here.
When it comes to physicals, the only part of their damage output that is reduced by armour is the rather pathetic base damage. Note that with warriors, this is reduced by Strength's armour penetration when they use attack skills.

Weaken Armour will indeed make enemies die faster, but not by much and there are usually better things you can replace it with in a physical team. It is very easy to achieve big numbers without Cracked Armour.

Now when you're with Eles, the story changes.

syphonus · Nov 08, 2009, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

PBond is bad.

I have to disagree with you on this, at least on an AP bar. Sure, AI might not prioritize hex removal. Sure, the self heal isn't all that necessary in PvE. What's important is that it's the fastest cover available-- in crisis situations it can prove invaluable. And it DOES take pressure off of the backline, comparable to a Patient Spirit on expiration. It's cheap, it's fast, it has a nice end effect. Pretty ideal for covering IMO. Plus your AoE options are 2sec casts or suffering.

Xenomortis · Nov 08, 2009, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by syphonus

I have to disagree with you on this, at least on an AP bar. Sure, AI might not prioritize hex removal. Sure, the self heal isn't all that necessary in PvE. What's important is that it's the fastest cover available-- in crisis situations it can prove invaluable. And it DOES take pressure off of the backline, comparable to a Patient Spirit on expiration. It's cheap, it's fast, it has a nice end effect. Pretty ideal for covering IMO. Plus your AoE options are 2sec casts or suffering.

Reckless Haste casts in one second (same as Parasitic Bond).
Reckless Haste is area of effect and is better at diverting removal as well as covering hexes.
Reckless Haste has a much more useful effect.

The recharge is not a consideration with AP and the energy cost is marginalised with it.

ruemere · Nov 09, 2009, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Yeah, the aim of the build is NOT to have 89275928562 EV assassins in the mob, it is to have one target, all your physicals attacking it, while you've hexed it with Mark of Pain and/or barbs.

It depends on whether you use physicals, whether the physicals get to attack the right mob and so on. Personally, I prefer to run ranged attackers.

Quote:

Sols is pointless because you have Soul Reaping generating 50e every 15 seconds and 15e from AP usually.

At the speed I am burning energy against bigger groups, 12x3 + 15 = 51e, is not enough to keep on going. At highest speed, energy expedinture is 40e per 6 seconds with return rate of 27e per 6 seconds. This is -13e per mob +any e regeneration I have. By 4th or 5th mob, I need to watch my energy bar carefully.
SOLS is there to ensure that I can cover up any overspending.

Quote:

And Parasatic Bond... Well, how about leaving it up to your monks and add something of benefit to your Physicals. Your Precciiouss physicals.

I like your Gollum reference. Regarding physicals - well, I do not use them too much, a henchman, minions or sometimes a pet.
I agree that Parasitic Bond is not the best hex in the game, but it is pretty useful for certain rare cases of missed AP, needed AP cover or supporting tanking with my poor necro.
It's also cheap and spammable.

Regarding proposals of using different hexes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Reckless Haste casts in one second (same as Parasitic Bond).
Reckless Haste is area of effect and is better at diverting removal as well as covering hexes.
Reckless Haste has a much more useful effect.

The recharge is not a consideration with AP and the energy cost is marginalised with it.

Reckless Haste costs three times more than Insidious Parasite. It's not spammable.
Also, if you miss AP (due to hex removal, or the mob lived too long), it may be not as useful for calling.
It works only on adjacent foes - spread groups are not affected.

Regards,
Ruemere

Xenomortis · Nov 09, 2009, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruemere

Reckless Haste costs three times more than Insidious Parasite. It's not spammable.
Also, if you miss AP (due to hex removal, or the mob lived too long), it may be not as useful for calling.
It works only on adjacent foes - spread groups are not affected.

You mean Parasitic Bond - Insidious Parasite is a 15e hex too.
Yes, RH does cost 15e, but it doesn't need to be spammable.

If you miss AP then you have problems. There are other hexes that you can use to prime discord targets and if you're not using discord then not having a hex on the enemy isn't a problem.

If you're running a Mark of Pain setup (that is, heavy physical presence, not discord) then missing AP is almost always a mistake on the part of the player.* All missing AP means is Mark of Pain and Rigor won't be available, so not having a spammable cover is meaningless, as there is nothing to cover.

If you're using RH as a fish hex, the small AoE isn't an issue - mobs not yet aggroed are usually very compact. Physicals usually group up nicely and casters don't spread out too much.
Once the mob has become diffuse, they're probably already defeated and having a cover isn't important - particularly as the important hex (MoP) won't have an effect either.

*Don't take this comment the wrong way. We all make mistakes and sometimes those mistakes lead to us missing AP.

ruemere · Nov 10, 2009, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You mean Parasitic Bond - Insidious Parasite is a 15e hex too.

I stand corrected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Yes, RH does cost 15e, but it doesn't need to be spammable.

I meant that I needed something spammable there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

If you miss AP then you have problems. There are other hexes that you can use to prime discord targets and if you're not using discord then not having a hex on the enemy isn't a problem.

What hexes would you suggest?

Regarding use of Discord - I usually run modified One-Man Spiritway with Disco Necro-Paragon. Calling targets is therefore recommended.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

If you're running a Mark of Pain setup (that is, heavy physical presence, not discord) then missing AP is almost always a mistake on the part of the player.* All missing AP means is Mark of Pain and Rigor won't be available, so not having a spammable cover is meaningless, as there is nothing to cover.

Agreed. See below for further comments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

If you're using RH as a fish hex, the small AoE isn't an issue - mobs not yet aggroed are usually very compact. Physicals usually group up nicely and casters don't spread out too much.
Once the mob has become diffuse, they're probably already defeated and having a cover isn't important - particularly as the important hex (MoP) won't have an effect either.

Agreed. See below for further comments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

*Don't take this comment the wrong way. We all make mistakes and sometimes those mistakes lead to us missing AP.

No offense taken. While I have been playing GW since open betas, I haven't become an expert and so I acknowledge my lack of experience.

For the heck of it, I have replaced Parasitic Bond with Reckless Haste and did Raven's Point HM (Plague of Destruction). I must admit that I was very pleasantly surprised to find Destroyers rendered almost completely ineffective (Plague of Destruction itself succumbed to neatly positioned MOP in about 15 seconds, after being ignored for about 20 seconds).

For the record, party setup was as follows:
me (Necro AP)
Rt + Rt (one-man spiritway with modifications)
Necro Paragon MM (Discord, SOLS, Shambling, B. Minions, Putrid Bile, Fall Back, Help Me, Signet of Return)
Herta
Aidan
Mhenlo
Devona

The only characters to die were Mhenlo (once), Herta (once or twice), Devona (once) and mine (three times).

Regards,
Ruemere

HigherMinion · Nov 10, 2009, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Good to see you tried RH, I always expect people to not take advice and just keep on saying their version is better.

By the way, physicals aren't just warriors, dervish and assassin. Paragon and rangers are also

Physical damage= non-elemental.

Don't get confused by the SoH description "Melee attacks deal 26~more damage" That is just close-combat weapons.

And of course, Weaken Armour actually has no place for a MoP nuker, it does literally nothing. In the sense that if you play it right, your physicals will be already dealing armour ignoring damage 99% of the time. So it's nonsense. All it would do is kill your MoP target a little faster, but not of noticeable speed.

If you wish to run MoP properly with "Physical", then the hench are generally 2x Warrior or one of the ranger, and 2x Mo. Sometimes I bring Vekk instead of a prot hench though.

ruemere · Nov 11, 2009, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Good to see you tried RH, I always expect people to not take advice and just keep on saying their version is better.

It's fun to try new things.

Quote:

By the way, physicals aren't just warriors, dervish and assassin. Paragon and rangers are also

Physical damage= non-elemental.

Don't get confused by the SoH description "Melee attacks deal 26~more damage" That is just close-combat weapons.

Hey, I'm not that inexperienced.

Quote:

And of course, Weaken Armour actually has no place for a MoP nuker, it does literally nothing. In the sense that if you play it right, your physicals will be already dealing armour ignoring damage 99% of the time. So it's nonsense. All it would do is kill your MoP target a little faster, but not of noticeable speed.

During my experiments with Discordway, I found Enfeeble to be more useful on hero bar due to shorter casting time. That's why I decided to use Necro MM Paragon - its quasi-healing skill (Help Me, Fall Back!) are shouts, and so they do not slow application of Discord.

Quote:

If you wish to run MoP properly with "Physical", then the hench are generally 2x Warrior or one of the ranger, and 2x Mo. Sometimes I bring Vekk instead of a prot hench though.

EVAS works as a secondary melee for me. I have maxed Vanguard ranks first.
Also, EVAS' AI is more kamikaze (i.e. assassin does not run away from AOE) making it more predictable than a henchman.
If I need to improve MOP output, I bring Devona (Hammer KD, huge benefit of Fall back here) and Aidan, but usually spiritspamming with my bar is more than sufficient to kill very fast.

Regards,
Ruemere

Chthon · Nov 11, 2009, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruemere

If I need to improve MOP output, I bring Devona (Hammer KD, huge benefit of Fall back here) and Aidan

NF Aidan has kindle arrows, so he wont trigger MoP.
EotN Aidan has Conjure Lightning, so I presume the devs gave him a shocking bow and he doesn't trigger MoP either.

Xenomortis · Nov 11, 2009, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

NF Aidan has kindle arrows, so he wont trigger MoP.
EotN Aidan has Conjure Lightning, so I presume the devs gave him a shocking bow and he doesn't trigger MoP either.

Fortunately NF gives us Sogolon.
In EotN we get Zho who is much more useful anyway due to interrupts.

Factions has loads of henchmen and trying to remember which one does what is hard. I think most of them deal physical damage though.

So now it's only Prophecies that screws us over for ranged physicals thanks to Reyna.

ambergris · Nov 13, 2009, 12:52 AM // 00:52

I'm fairly new to this and I may have missed something but why encourage a N/E to cap and use Assassin's Promise when it doesn't fit either of his or her professions?

HigherMinion · Nov 13, 2009, 01:22 AM // 01:22

If he's ascended, he can change easily. No one sticks with one secondary profession.

And I didn't want to promote a subpar human curses build.

Chthon · Nov 15, 2009, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Fortunately NF gives us Sogolon.
In EotN we get Zho who is much more useful anyway due to interrupts

Strongly agree with these hench choices.

ValaOfTheFens · Nov 19, 2009, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Here's a basic SS build: OAVDQrZHTvBLB5BnBCNdC3gYcA
Awaken The Blood-Arcane Echo-Spiteful Spirit-Price of Failure-Wreckless Haste-Blood Ritual-Necrosis-Sunspear Rebirth Signet
Curses-12 + 3 + 1
Blood-11 + 1
Soul Reaping-6 + 3

Price of Failure isn't necessary but rather a personal choice for some HM spots. Insidious Parasite is great in most areas and goes off even if an enemy can't deal you any damage. Also, Blood Ritual is situational. I use it on dumb heros like Acolyte Sosuke who can't manage their energy and in pugs fellow casters appreciate a buff now and then. This sort of build seems to have fallen out of favor but it still works so I use it.